Pulling vs. pushing?

[GSD-Freak]

What to you prefer - a dog that is pulling or one that is pushing into the bite and WHY? How do you train a dog to push? Coming from Schutzhund background pushing is a pretty new concept to me.

[Stellen]

I prefer a push biting dog myself. I feel its mostly genetic in nature for the dog that does push bite and some programs breed for this, such as NVBK and KNPV. IMO...I feel you can teach this push biting style only very little, if your going against your dogs genetics. One reason for liking this style is if the decoy gives a bad bite or bad presentation the dog will automatically seek a deeper grip and constantly push deeper and deeper...even if the decoy is passive or active. I hope I helped!

[Patriot-K9]

I much prefer a push grip!! The pain is more real and I am sure I am not the only one on here that looks for my dog to have a crushing deep bite that hurts! I agree with Stellen to a point. Genetics is definately a huge part of it. You can train this by decoy rewarding with the reaction of pain (screaming, falling, etc.) when the dog grips in deeper. When beginning foundation the helper walking backwards almost making the dog walk and push into the bite each time or else it will loose it. I notice with alot of pushers that instead of teaching the dog to counter based on tension and release of the leash they will push the dog onto the bite more or grab ahold of the cheeks or jawls of the dog to hold the dog steady until he decides to push into it. There are plenty of ways to teach but this is what I am most familiar with.

[calden]

I would tend to agree that I would prefer a dog that constantly drives into the decoy or assailant. From a practical / real standpoint if a dog is pulling you can "slip" the bite. By that I mean the dog may have purchase on the sleeve (training or real clothes) and you can adjust so that is all they have - with no real arm "meat" for lack of a better term. As Patriot said - if the dog is constantly driving forward deeper into the bite it makes it very difficult to slip a bite - for decoy or bad guy. This is not to take anything away from dogs that pull and then drive in and pull - but if I had a choice I would want the push for that constantly deeper bite. Either way - most people are not going to like either bite....

[GSD-Freak]

But a pulling dog that isn't deep into the bite right from the beginning got bad grip work. In Schutzhund the quality of grip - and the Schutzhund grip is a pull grip - counts very much, the judges will never turn blind eye at it. The actual reason why pulling is not only preferred but nearly obligation is 'cause the dog is forced to set a perfect grip right away while with a push grip the dog can adjust it afterwards. This stems from surely from "German perfection" and I see that on the street an adjusted grip is better than a lost grip. I also heard that pushing is also a question of liability 'cause a pulling grip hurts tissue much more. But what I found interesting in working dog forum two Police K-9 Handlers said they prefer the pull 'cause so the dog pulls the suspect out of hides. As for me I would probably work the kind of grip the dogs brings along with his genes!

[rachelk]

I have two adult working dogs one who comes from KNPV lines and he has a very hard pushing grip. The other my mal come from old french lines has a pulling grip which is hard also but genetically not as hard as the dutchie.
I believe that grip is MOSTLY genetics. That being said I believe that you can only improve on what your dog has genetically. I think that both grips can be equal in pain factor. So I guess I really don't have a preference

[Stellen]

Yes, Patroit you can teach it the way you described,when you train pushing its strictly prey.When defensive pressure comes I personally feel the dog will most likely "default" back to his/her genetics, yes they may stay in the bite or fight,which takes precedence over whether or not they are push or pulling. The pressure in the bite from most other sports is nominal compared to PSA. What I'm really trying to say is I feel teaching a dog to push who isn't a natural pusher will not be a "reliable pusher" when the heat comes. That is why I think you can teach it only very little IMO. OK Patroit you can beat me up now......it was just my anyway. Gsd Freak.....I think push or pull the suspect will come out of hiding begging the officer to get the dog off LMAO!

[calden]

Just to add to what Rachel wrote - I take bites from both of her dogs every week and both of them bite very hard and it is definitly painful..... I can say though that Crack the Dutchie that is the "pusher" has a harder bite then Buddy the Mal. I think there are a lot of contributing factors there - but Crack's approach, bite, guard and any recovery are all more intimidating. Like you all said though - you can only work with what the dog is bringing to the table. Trust me - both those dogs are extremely impressive and they are both dogs that anyone would be lucky to have -though most could not probably handle.... Rachel has done a tremendous job of bringing out the genetic attributes in each of those dogs.

PS - IT is funny to refer to a dog named Crack as a "pusher"... He has the best crotch guard in which he slams into your "area" with each bark for extra effect. Can you tell I love that dog...
-Chad

[Patriot-K9]

Stellen, for the record I am not a ball buster in any way never have been. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I am definately not the most knowledgable out there and always seeking more knoledge, detail, and experience. I do absolutely agree that you must enhance what is already brought to the table genetically first. I have seen where dogs that were taught to push would pull during pressure and dogs that were taught to pull push during pressure. I do prefer the pushing grips more but I know both hurt. I think that the pushing grips are more consistently painful though as you don't have to wait for the dog to counter off the huge piece of suit (remember I am only 4"11 and 120 lbs) I will admit they are usually do bring me down if large enough dog, that or my back is really hurt for fighting it. I personally like a dog that wraps their front paws around you and digs in and thrashes at each counter. I have almost been knocked down by just that alone in a pushing dog. It is a beautiful thing when you have raw power up close and in your face and that's how intimidated I want any perp. to feel. I also wanted to mention to GSD freak that I think most people teach the dog to get the full grip right away also. Not just sch. people. Don't get me wrong it may not happen everytime but I believe we train for it. There is a stage in my training at least where if the dog doesn't set the grip full first time I will out dog and try again. Only when the grip is initially full will I reward with the fight they desire. (be careful with that though, out or choke off or redirect to other decoy with a very unrythemic order or dogs get smart about not outing, ) Great thread

[maberi]

Are there any true benefits to a dog that pushes vs pulls in the sport world?

Outside of a difference in inflicting pain to someone wearing a suit, I can't fathom it would make much of a difference to someone taking the bite without protection. I had a 20 lb Bedlington terrier grab my hand and all 4 punctures went down to the bone. Had that been a shepherd, all of those bones would have been broken.